Question on trigger.

Question on trigger.

Postby Oregonair » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:43 am

Hello. I'm new to the forum. I'm a long time shooter of smokeless powder rifles, pistols, and revolvers. One thing that any weapon I own must have is a very good trigger. I like a crisp release, and a 2.5 - 4 lb pull dependent upon weather it's a hand gun or rifle. I like pistols around the 3 lb range and rifles A tad heavier. I'm not really expecting that from my air rifle but it can be improved upon.
I purchased an Air Arms TX200 HC, mostly because of the reviews I read and of course it's a well made beautiful rifle. Two things which have troubled me are the engagement of the safety (or lack of), and the mushy (very light) trigger. I was able to sort out the safety issue. The trigger may not really be mushy, but so light I can't tell when the second stage engages. It's not gritty, actually it's very smooth, but too light. I checked the bottom sear to top sear engagement and it looks fine. I stretched the bottom sear spring which helped a little but is not nearly enough. If I were buying a target rifle, I wouldn't mind such a light trigger so much.
I have a Izzy 46m that has a light trigger but much crisper than the AA. Am I expecting too much out of the AA trigger? Is this how triggers are on good air rifles? Is there an aftermarket setup out there which I can convert to that will give me more of a crisp feel to the trigger release? I'm tempted to order a new sear, because this one has been hit with a file, presumably at the factory as the rifle came to me NIB, and still had shipping grease applied. Any advice will be appreciated.

John
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Re: Question on trigger.

Postby TenMetrePeter » Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:18 am

Hello John and welcome! Are you from Oregon?

Spring rifle triggers need to hold back the mainspring of considerable force. Firearms, SSPs and PCPs only need to hold back a hammer. Designing a light smooth trigger on a springer is an art that AA and Weihrauch have done well with their CD and Rekord designs. Persevere with adjustment and polishing but I would enjoy a lighter rather than a heavier action. Gamo and Daisy do kids air rifles with 4lb triggers and I wouldnt want one! I expect a heavier sear spring may increase weight but may blur the second stage even more. Stretching any spring beyond elastic limit will have weakened it anyway.

Airgun safeties are an oxymoron. They are not safe and I wouldn't want to rely on a safety catch. One day you'll forget.

I am of course a "target" shooter. Pistols 510gm and rifles zero trigger weight. No safety catch just range rules.
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Re: Question on trigger.

Postby Sake-san » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:09 am

Hi John
For an air rifle the AA CD trigger unit is generally considered to be one of the best, however they certainly benefit from being properly set up, when so done one very rarely hears of complaints. Getting a crisp (breaking glass) second stage is certainly attainable.
Standard procedure is:
Flush / clean out all of the transit lubrication (replace with a modicum of your preferred alternative/s)
Polish the mating surfaces of the sears (caution to not round off any angles)
Back out fully both 1st & 2nd stage adjusters.
Adjust 1st stage to your preferred length of pull & then 2nd stage to give the level of resistance preferred, fine tuning the weight adjuster accordingly. Easier done off the action using the piston to cock the mechanism. Then fine tuned in situ if required.
The quality of finish on the sears is variable (to be polite!) so a new one may not yield any benefits.
Probably teaching you to suck eggs, otherwise good luck with getting it sorted.
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Re: Question on trigger.

Postby Oregonair » Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:15 am

Thank you for the replies. I reprofiled the sear, and re-set up the trigger and it's much better now. Definite two stage feel now. The intermittent safety was due to the charging handle making contact with the 3mm flat head counter sunk screw that fastens the stock mounting bracket to the bottom of the barrel shroud. I made the counter sunk hole deeper in order to get the screw head flush with the bracket. Safety works 100% now.

Another question. I installed a Vortek tuning kit in my rifle a year ago to help smooth out the shot cycle and dampen the sound. It did both very well. But it reduced the he power about 3.5%. I would like to get the power back and still keep the rifle quiet and smooth. Is there a tuning kit out there that will do that?
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Re: Question on trigger.

Postby pelletcaster » Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:22 am

You didn't mention what's the power output now.

I've tried different kits (V-Mach, TinBum, Vortek) in several AGs (HW, AA TX, Diana 34).
For me Vortek is the best.

To my experience Vortek VAC-seals are a little bit oversized and need some resizing or about 1k+ shots to settle in.

So you could try
to resize
to change to the O-Ring conversion
or to try a genuine TX piston seal.

If your gun is shooting consistently and smoothly awa accurately I'd leave it well alone.

ATB
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-----------------------------------------
AA TX200 HC / LGU Master / LGV-CU / HW35 / HW50s (1974) / HW50S (2015) / HW90 / DIANA 34 T01
DS MK4iS-S / SPA P-12 / CZ200S-Green
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Re: Question on trigger.

Postby Oregonair » Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:50 am

Pelletcaster, the power out is 11.8 fpe. I too have the Vortek installed. It does exactly what it claims. Really smooths out the rifle. Accuracy is excellent. I may end up putting it back in at the end of this little experiment.
I ordered a piston seal: (http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Air_Arms_ ... ifles/4083, (is this the seal)? I'm going to convert back to the original piston bearings from the Vortek o-rings.
When you say resize you mean the mainspring?
I ordered the TinBum high power kit. I'm not dead set on wanting to have more power. Keeping the accuracy and smooth behaviour and gaining some energy is the goal. We'll see. One thing is sure, I'll have fun figuring it out.
I appreciate all the replies and advice! I'm new to the air rifle other than the BB gun I had as a kid, and forums like this are a gold mine of info. I can tell how much you all are into your sport, and for good reason it's a heck of a lot of fun! Guess we're all still that little kid with the BB gun (just a little bit). Haha
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Re: Question on trigger.

Postby pelletcaster » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:38 pm

So you're running a Vortek O-ring kit producing 11,8 fpe.
IMHO the O-ring kit does a better job in HPO-systems.
So you could get a slight power increase if changing to the genuine AA piston seal you ordered.

My resizing referred to the Vortec VAC piston seal.

TbT shows three different kits.
Two of them include a short stroke set with a 25mm HW piston seal.
As you're getting a genuine AA piston seal I think you ordered this kit:
http://www.airrifletuning.com/wp-conten ... G_0032.jpg
I'm looking forward how you will rate this kit vs the Vortek one.

Have fun.
Like me. :lol: ;)
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-----------------------------------------
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DS MK4iS-S / SPA P-12 / CZ200S-Green
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Re: Question on trigger.

Postby FPoole » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:41 am

On the Vortek kit you may need to pull all the parts out and clean them of all the lube Vortek used. I found that some of the lube winds up feeling sort of like chewing gum, after a while. I cleaned the kit I was working with and just used some quality moly. This was a 15 ft. lb. kit being used in an older short stroke gun. The output is very near 12 ft. lbs., but had dropped by 20 fps. The clean out got back all the lost power.
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Re: Question on trigger.

Postby Oregonair » Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:38 am

Thought I'd post an update on my quest for more power. I installed the TinBum kit and messed the job up. I followed instructions for install putting spacer into the piston, installling the other parts correctly lubricating and so on. The rifle wouldn't cock. As the spring was somewhat longer than any other spring I have, I thought the spring needed to be shortened. Yeah I know. Scown! The problem turned out to be the length of the guide. I shortened it 6mm, end of problem, but now I'm not getting the power. Shoots nice though. 13 FPE, quiet. Accuracy good. I'm going to get TinBum to send me another spring.
Now piston spacer is stuck in the piston. :shock:
Ok, not to be dissuaded I've ordered and installed the newest Vortek kit. 14.8 fpe and solid. I was going to say harsh, but that's not true, it's fairly loud compared to the other setups. If I can figure out or if someone can suggest a workable solution to getting the spacer out of the piston, I can tone the sound down a little bit. Accuracy good. I'm going to continue to shoot with this setup for awhile and see how it "breaks in". Just a side note: I was out in the woods shooting the new setup, changing this and that, and using the tailgate of my truck and a rubber exercise mat for a work bench. While putting the c-clip on the cocking handle pin, twang, there goes the c-clip on to the ground. No spare. Guess what? I found it! Ha! I purchased a lottery ticket on the way home, didn't win.
So in summary for now: the 12.0 FPE was the best set up so far for both accuracy and shooting enjoyment.
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Re: Question on trigger.

Postby pelletcaster » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:04 am

Oregonair wrote:...I followed instructions for install putting spacer into the piston, ...correctly lubricating...
...Now piston spacer is stuck in the piston. :shock: ...
... if someone can suggest a workable solution to getting the spacer out of the piston,...


Most of the time the spacer gets hold up in the piston just by the grease.
Grab the piston (seal up) and hit with the rod down onto a wooden board. No brutal force needed, just to release the hold of the grease. Repeat several times until spacer is out. If not - degrease inside of piston - break cleaner spray does a treat. Spacer should fall out easily. Don't forget to regrease.

BTW - if you "oversprung" the spring by too much of a preload most likely power will decrease.
So its quite possible that without spacer(s) power will go up and shooting will be smoother anyway.

Good luck and keep coming back.
Live is a journey - not a destination.
-----------------------------------------
AA TX200 HC / LGU Master / LGV-CU / HW35 / HW50s (1974) / HW50S (2015) / HW90 / DIANA 34 T01
DS MK4iS-S / SPA P-12 / CZ200S-Green
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